Debbie Foster (00:03):
Welcome back to The Powerful Leaders No apologies podcast where we celebrate fierce, fabulous females making waves in the legal world. I’m Debbie Foster and I’m excited to introduce you to these women who are leading the charge with their bold leadership and influential journeys ready to be inspired by their powerful stories. Here’s the show. Welcome back to a special episode of The Powerful Leaders. No apologies podcast. A couple of fun things. First, I have a special guest with me today, Beth Thompson. If you’ve listened, you know exactly who Beth is, but I’ll talk more about that in a minute. And I want to let everyone know I have a special announcement that you can hear at the end of this episode, but this is going to be the final episode of season two of the Powerful Leaders Know Apologies podcast. And it’s actually going to be the final episode of this version of the show.
(01:02):
We’re going to go in a little bit of a different direction. I can’t tell you how much fun it has been to be able to do this for the last couple of seasons, and it’s exactly why when I knew that we were going to wrap up the podcast in its current form, I reached out to Beth and I said, I can’t think of a better way to wrap up two seasons of powerful leaders. No apologies than the person who sat in the Delta Sky Club with me however long ago that was, and over a glass of Prosecco dreamt this whole thing up. So Beth, thank you for coming back and doing this final episode.
Beth Thompson (01:38):
I was so excited when you asked me. I remember you texted me and you said, Hey, do you have a couple of minutes? And I thought, oh, what in the world? What could this be? And then you called me and asked me if I would co-host this last episode, and I’m thrilled to be here. And so appreciative of everything we’ve done, which I know we’re going to take a walk down memory lane here in just a couple of minutes, but it has been certainly a labor of love. And you’re right, it was the Sky Lounge. And I laugh when you always remember the Prosecco. Yes, there was Prosecco involved, but we dreamt this up and we planned it out and we saw it to fruition. And here we are. I think it’s been about two years, right around this time. I believe it’s about two years ago. So a lot has happened in that time
Debbie Foster (02:24):
And 44 or so episodes, which I mean has been amazing. I’m sure that you’ve seen this too, but you walk the halls of a trade show or a conference and people are like, wait, the Powerful Leaders Know Apologies podcast. It is been impactful beyond just what it’s meant to you and me as we created it and came up with this amazing list of people to have on the show, which we didn’t even get to all of them, but we had some really amazing people on the show.
Beth Thompson (02:56):
Well, what is so cool about it is I don’t think there was anyone who was a stranger to both of us. We just knew this many amazing women and a few men as well. We won’t leave them out. We will certainly talk about our male guests and you’ve got to be pretty special to make the Powerful Leaders know Apologies podcast as a non woman. So we have appreciated all of that. But yeah, it’s been great. I strolled down memory lane this morning as I was drinking my coffee and I was kind of reminding myself of all of our amazing guests and the topics and maybe some themes that came out of it, and I can’t wait for us to talk about that over the next few minutes, but it really has been fantastic. And just to know that we have this many women, smart, capable, impacting the world, women in our lives is pretty incredible.
Debbie Foster (03:54):
It really is. And that’s when I was scrolling through earlier today, I was thinking the same thing like, wow, Judy Flournoy and Caroline Hill, I’m just going through the list going, oh my gosh, these people are legends in our community, but such powerful women who have made such a big difference. So I felt exactly the same way. How honored to know all of these people.
Beth Thompson (04:19):
Well, and some of these women, and I’ve jotted down a few names and please let me just go ahead and say if for some reason I don’t mention your name, it’s not because you were not an impactful interview and someone we really respect. It’s just we may or may not get to all 44 I think, or 46, 1 of those two numbers. That’s pretty incredible. But think about all of the female industry pioneers, and I consider these few women that I’m going to mention as truly pioneers in the legal world and in particular legal tech in most cases, but Valerie Cannell and Connie Britton, joy Heath Rush, and Anne Gore, and you mentioned Judy already. Judy was on my list. But we’ve got a lot of different women from different eras of the long time that you and I’ve been doing this. And those women in particular are true pioneers and have paved the way for so many women after them and some of which have been on the show as well.
Debbie Foster (05:18):
Yeah, I told this story when we interviewed Valerie about how 23 years ago, I don’t even know how long ago it was, I was in an audience and she was on the stage with another woman who I really admire that was never on our podcast, but Dale Wayne Wright. And I was thinking like, wow, how cool would it be to be on a stage with another woman and giving a presentation like that? I couldn’t imagine that ever that I would ever be in that situation. And they were huge, just I really looked up to them and to have Valerie on the show, and you’re right, joy, when we both got involved in Ilta way back and you’re like, there’s Joy Heath Rush, and now she’s a friend. We call her a friend there. It’s just amazing. You’re absolutely right about that.
Beth Thompson (06:05):
Yes, and I think in addition to the pioneers, we’ve had some women on that I would say are current leaders and some emerging leaders. We’ve really been able to expand it. Women like Brie McCrory from Big Hand and LJ Finney of course, and Danette Schafer you just had on the show not too long ago that I met through volunteering with Ulta. And it was after, it was before I left the podcast, but then after I left the podcast and I was so happy that you were able to connect with Danette because she’s doing amazing things out there. And of course Jody Baker who’s kind of paving the way too CEO of her own company. So we just continue to have women that are showing other women how to show up and how to be confident and just some great role models for all the women out there.
Debbie Foster (06:57):
For sure. And I also think about all of our A Friends like the A LA has been such an important community for me and I know for you two in our careers, and Amanda Kless was our first guest and then I brought her back as our first guest on season two. I thought that would just be a cool thing to have her back again. And she’s currently serving as the president of a LA, but we had Sarah Evenson who was also the president, and she is a mover and shaker at Barnes and Thornburg, her firm. She’s just an absolute superstar. Michelle Cohen, having Michelle Cohen and her role that she played with the A Foundation, listening to that story was just so amazing. I also think that ilta a LA, we’ve really gotten some people to that have been on the show that have made such an impact, not just on our own professional careers, but thinking about how technology is viewed in law firms and thinking about ways to get lawyers to think about how to get their work done differently. We have had people who have been so impactful there and I mean I could go listen to all of these episodes again and just take it all in and I hope that people will take some time to go look, I don’t know if you have more on your list, I want to ask you about a couple of your favorite. I do. Tell me what
Beth Thompson (08:21):
I do. So one of the things that really stood out in my memory was the fact that multiple guests had some sort of a philosophy around the letter C in particular. And so I went back and I tried to find all because I knew there was more than one episode, and it’s so funny, there were actually three episodes. I may have missed some, but three for sure. We had Valerie with her CTR, curiosity, transparency and Respect. I think she was the first person out of the gate to talk about that. And then of course we had Connie Britton with her five Cs, which were culture, communication, collaboration, courage and creativity. And then I think just recently you had Danette on the show and she as part of her services has an offering that involves communication, collaboration, connection and clarification. So there’s a lot of seas happening across the board. I just found that to be very interesting and I remembered and so I went back and looked to see where we had talked about these. That was interesting to me.
Debbie Foster (09:23):
That’s so funny that you went back and got those. I didn’t even connect that together. I recently recorded with Danette and then I had a virtual coffee with her earlier this week and she really is amazing. I’m recalling now her telling me about that service offering. So that’s really funny. One little trip down memory lane that I went down when I was thinking about this, I had Christie Burke on not that long ago, and Christie was the first consultant that I ever paid at Affinity to help with marketing 20 years ago, and she had us write a jingle, I’m not going to sing the jingle. Oh darn. But I could sing that jingle right now. In fact, I have given Christie a hug and mumbled the whispered the jingle into her ear. It just never left me. People like that who just really left a mark on your journey. Christie is one of those for me, for sure.
Beth Thompson (10:17):
Well, and we also had Amy from Edge Marketing and we had Trina of course from Action Steps, so we had marketing well represented over the course of the two seasons
Debbie Foster (10:26):
We did, and I don’t know if you know EJ Stern and Catherine Wilson, but you should get to know them too. They are two other just superstar, their fractional CMO is the name of their company, and they also talked a lot about marketing and it’s a new company. I think they’re like 18 months old, but they’re just a powerhouse and are working with a couple of our clients on marketing. So you’re right, we did. And Elise Holtzman is another recent one too, more marketing business development. So we definitely have some really great episodes talking about marketing and business development.
Beth Thompson (10:58):
I think that certainly another trend throughout multiple episodes, including our two when we interviewed each other, which was of course a lot of fun, but a little bit, it’s much different being the interviewee for sure. I prefer being on the other side of the microphone, but networking was something that came up a lot. You talked about it, I talked about it. Judy for Illinois talked about it. Ari Kaplan of course talked about it. When we think of networking, we think of Ari. And Ari was, I’m sure still goes down in history as the most named individual in all of our seasons in both seasons by far. And there’s no contest, but networking was a big theme.
Debbie Foster (11:39):
It was and who connections and people talked about how they got jobs because of who they know, how they advanced in their career because of who they know. You’re right, those are some cool stories.
Beth Thompson (11:52):
Let’s talk for a few minutes about part of the origin of the podcast and we kind of got away from it, but it was so interesting, certainly that first half, I think of the first season where we were talking about and where the name came from, the no apologies part. We learned a lot. I can tell you from doing this podcast that I apologize way less than I ever did before. And I’m very mindful when I hear it in others, whether it’s men or women, and I find myself catching them and explaining to them why they do not need to be apologizing.
Debbie Foster (12:23):
Same here. It is really like those words have really come to light for me and like you said, me saying it and listening to other people, and I’m also much more, it’s kind of like when you buy a blue car, you see a million blue cars. I feel like social media has fed me all of the, instead of saying, I’m sorry when you’re late for a meeting, say this instead. I regularly get stuff like that. And so I’ve started with because better than anyone, I’m like one or three minutes late to every meeting it feels like. But thanks for your patience. I really have just tried to watch how I use those words and not to not apologize. Definitely that was never what it was about for us. It was not about avoiding saying you’re sorry at all costs. It was just the tendency that women have to apologize for things that oftentimes men wouldn’t even dream of apologizing for. So it has been really to make yourself a little bit more self-aware about how you use those words. I think it has been really transformative for me for sure.
Beth Thompson (13:30):
Absolutely. And I think along the way too, we had some episodes that were just very powerful, certainly as a mentorship to the younger generation in how we are breaking through barriers and ceilings and women are finally standing up for themselves and asking for the pay that they want and not feeling like they can’t apply for a position even if they don’t check all the boxes. There were so many things that for years really were barriers for us that really are no longer barriers. And I think it took quite a few episodes of people reminding like, Hey, those days are over. You just have to use your voice and you have to, no one’s going to be an advocate for you, like you are going to be an advocate for you
Debbie Foster (14:12):
For sure. And we also heard some really hard stories around what was expected of women rising in the ranks and how hard that was for so many people in trying to figure out how to get where they wanted to go. We talked in some of the episodes about how people struggled when they had kids of having their seat at the table. There were some really, really powerful stories in all of this of people figuring out how to navigate that, that were really inspiring.
Beth Thompson (14:45):
No, for sure. So maybe we should switch gears and talk about the men that we had on the podcast.
Debbie Foster (14:51):
My favorite topic,
Beth Thompson (14:52):
There were three and only one of them now. I love that you had Matt Holman on the show after I was no longer part of it, but I did listen to the episode and always one of my favorite people. But yeah, let’s talk about the men. We should probably start with who was Ari first or was Michael Cohen first? I can’t remember. I think Mike Colin might’ve been the first man we had officially on. And then we decided, well, if we’re going to open up to men, we must bring Ari on, right.
Debbie Foster (15:17):
Well, since he was the most talked about man on, I mean I think we got to person 13. Well, that’s true person. You’re
Beth Thompson (15:24):
Right.
Debbie Foster (15:25):
13 to 15 episodes and we’re like, everyone’s talking about Ari Kaplan. I think we just need to have him on the show. And we had already set the precedent by having Coach Mike on, and his story was so cool. Michael just spoke at Lemonade. He’s talking about creating a great place to work, how a law firm can be a destination employer. That’s what he spoke on at Lemonade, but he talked a lot about, he’s a dad to two girls and he coaches a softball team, and he talked about just how much time he has invested and how much time he spends on raising fierce females and making sure that they know that they belong just like a man belongs. They belong too, and that was a really inspiring conversation.
Beth Thompson (16:10):
Well, and it’s interesting, as you know, I have grandsons and a granddaughter and it has been interesting to watch her with. Now she has three brothers, but she holds her own, and I went to her very first little cheer, so like a little football game. I drove down to Georgia to visit them and got there just in time and just to watch the confidence in her as she was out there doing her little cheers and just knowing her big personality and how confident she is at this young age. She’s six, just turned six. It’s nice to see because she’s going to be a future leader, a powerful future leader. I can’t wait to see what she does.
Debbie Foster (16:50):
Yeah, I’m sure she is. And I think three brothers probably positioned you well for that.
Beth Thompson (16:56):
Well, I had four brothers, so yes, I was already prime, but she’s got three brothers, so I think she’s following in my footsteps for sure. But when you are the only girl, you do have to stand up and fight for yourself sometimes. Although I was the oldest, so I was the mother hen, and I know I’ve annoyed my brothers at times, but I wouldn’t have it any other way really.
Debbie Foster (17:17):
Yeah, me too. And still am the mother hen even all these years later, right? Same. Same. Yes. Well, and then there was Ari.
Beth Thompson (17:25):
Yes, our great friend Ari, and when you talk networking, that’s the first name. He’s a connector. He is a, he always has been. And it’s amazing to watch him in action. He’s just the nicest, kindest, most generous person as well. And the fact that he gets up at five or 6:00 AM and runs at every conference no matter what he was doing or how late he might’ve been out and manages to convince a lot of people who were probably out later and doing other things than he was to get up and go run with him. It’s amazing.
Debbie Foster (18:00):
It is amazing. You probably saw Aria at Ilta. I saw him at ilta and something that is just this quick little story about Ari really just describes who he is. Him and I were walking somewhere. We were trying to go find a place for lunch, and we were walking in the Gaylord over the river and through the woods kind of thing, and we walked by this guy and he was like, whatever his name was Jason, I think. Jason. Oh my gosh, it’s so good to see you, Jason. Do you know Debbie? You guys should absolutely know each other. You know what, I’m going to send an introduction. And I was like, yeah, great to meet you. We walk away. I’m like literally left my brain four days after Ilta, I get an email from Ari where Jason, I think that’s what his name was, was copied saying, Hey, we ran into each other in the hallway at ilta. Now he did not stop to write that down. He just remembered that he said he was going to make a connection and he did. And that is just what he does. Who can I put together in a room? It’s just amazing.
Beth Thompson (19:00):
That’s a great story. Yes. I would never, my memory is not like it used to be, so I have to write everything down. I know you’re the same way. No,
Debbie Foster (19:07):
Absolutely. And one other thing about Ari that I’ll say that just kind of to be filed under the, he is such a great connector or the opportunity maker because that was the name of his, his book. But Ari started hosting a virtual lunch that happens at 12 o’clock Eastern started during the pandemic, and I think he’s a thousand episodes in right? Four year. It’s got to be more than a thousand episodes in. There are very few days that he doesn’t do it, and sometimes he only has three or five or seven people, and sometimes he has 25 or 30 or 40. And that has been a great way, Clark, I met Shireen on the virtual lunch and she was one of our guests. Anne Gore is a frequent attendee of the virtual lunch, another just space that he made for people to come together and connect. He’s a superstar.
Beth Thompson (19:59):
He is, and it’s great that that is still going strong. And in fact, I always see he’s a master at LinkedIn and social media in general, but LinkedIn specifically, and I always see he’s got fabulous people that he brings in to connect and share information and knowledge and yeah, it’s great, but we can’t leave out Matt, Matt Homan. Let’s talk about Matt.
Debbie Foster (20:23):
Gosh, I love Matt. We actually have a second. His episode is the second to last episode. His second episode, we talked for 40 minutes and we didn’t even get to everything, and I was like, we’re going to have to do a part two. So Matt is going to have a part two, but he is such a creative thinker. Sometimes he says things that are just off the cuff that are so brilliant that I’m like, I don’t know why Guy is, well, how did I get to be friends with this guy? He sees things differently. The Idea Surplus Disorder newsletter that he sends out every Monday is the one regular email that I get that I read front to back every single time. He’s just such a powerful strategic thinker. I love that. I can count on him like, Hey, do you have a minute? I want to bend your ear about something. I just love Matt.
Beth Thompson (21:14):
Yep, he’s great. Well, I’m excited that he’s got another episode coming out. We’ll be on the lookout for that.
Debbie Foster (21:19):
I know we kind of talked about what would it look like if the business model of law firms got blown up? So it was a super interesting conversation. So you’re listening to this and you haven’t listened to that episode. Go back and check it out. It was a really great conversation with Matt. Beth, I was going to ask you if you had to pick one or two episodes that stand out to you as your favorites. I have two, but it was really hard for me to pick two.
Beth Thompson (21:49):
Yes. I should have anticipated this question. Let me think for a few minutes.
Debbie Foster (21:53):
Do you want me to tell you my two while you’re thinking?
Beth Thompson (21:55):
Sure, go ahead.
Debbie Foster (21:56):
Okay. So my first one that I think is, if I just put this at the top of the list is Lisa Linsky. When she told us her story about being at McDermott and starting 20 something years ago, the first BT back then, I think it was just but LGBTQ plus group in an AM law firm. It was so inspiring and I mean, you just have to listen to that. She talked about how she was the only gay lawyer that was out that she knew and her, I don’t know if it was her managing partner, who it was, who came to her and said, Hey, go make a group out of this. You don’t have any budget. We can’t give you any direction on this, but go do that. And she did that. And so many law firms modeled how they think about diversity and inclusion after what she did at McDermott was a really, really cool, powerful story.
(22:57):
And the other one that I really just loved, and it really goes to the theme of this podcast, is I have been lucky enough to be able to be involved in the Susan L. French mentorship program and having my mentees on the show and talking about their journey, they’re so young and the beginning of their careers, it was super inspiring. And I just had Erica and Joanna, Erica Brundage and Joanna hurt on, and I had such a great time just being their mentor and then also hearing them kind of tell the story back about what it was like to go through that program and thinking about their career aspirations and knowing that they could go back and they had gone back and listen to episodes of this podcast and they were inspiring to them too was really cool.
Beth Thompson (23:47):
Those were all great episodes. I think Lisa would be definitely one of mine as well that stood out. There were a lot of ’em that stood out, but Andrea Markstrom and I might’ve just butchered it, but that was a very impactful story and it stayed with me and it still stays with me. And we remember hearing her speak at the women who, I mean we’ve probably heard her a few times, but the women who lead in New York a couple of years ago, and just hearing her personal story and challenges that she had and actually then at a crossroads of what was she going to do next because I think she was going to be a dancer. And then she had this personal tragic situation happen and then she pivoted and she ended up in a law firm and in it and then worked her way up and talking about having a family and working in a high profile law firm. I remember her story as being very inspiring because she just against all odds, was able to do some amazing things. And she also, I think had some mentors along the way that helped her kind of guide her to where she is now. So that one stands out. I mean, all of them were great episodes. It is really hard to narrow down because there was some nugget or lesson to be learned or some inspirational quote from every single episode.
Debbie Foster (25:06):
I agree. It’s definitely hard to narrow it down. One last thing that I’ll say about something that I think all the time, I know I work like you. We both work a lot. We work hard, we enjoy what we do. I have really enjoyed that there are so many clients along the way that have also become friends and so many industry people along the way that have become friends. And when I was just kind of scrolling through the list, there are some great affinity clients on here. Like Amanda COPIs is an a person, but she’s also a friend and she’s also an affinity client. And I had Kim Wolf from Wells Fargo and Felice Duffy who also has an amazing story. But the connection of these were clients first
(25:53):
And then they became friends and we had them on the podcast and got to let them share their story. There’s probably more on here for sure, like Liz Broughton, I’m just looking at the list. Who did I leave off of that list? Liz Broughton for sure. But just being able to connect back to clients and really hear their personal stories and other industry people that maybe I didn’t know that just reminded me, you, Natalie Wagged story. Holy cow. I’m just looking at her face right here. That was such an amazing story. I mean, just every episode is just filled with them. Like you said,
Beth Thompson (26:31):
It wasn’t in particular was interesting because even though we had known her through our working with her when she was at fy, there were aspects to her personal story and her professional story that we didn’t know until we sat down and talked to her. So that was a good one. That one for sure will stand out.
Debbie Foster (26:51):
And maybe the takeaway here is everyone has a story. And part of what’s cool about being in a business like this where the world is pretty small is take the time to learn other people’s stories. You never know what nuggets you can take away. You never know how someone’s story and what they tackled or triumphed over in their career, how that can help you think about what’s next for you. I think that would be my big takeaway from the 40 something episodes that we had here, is that there’s always room to be inspired by someone else in the journey that they took and how it might’ve been different from my,
Beth Thompson (27:33):
I totally agree with you, and thank you again for bringing me back. It’s been fun to reminisce and think about what all we’ve accomplished. And I’m looking forward to whatever this announcement is of what’s coming next. I’m sure whatever it is, I will be along for the ride as a fan. And thanks for having me on.
Debbie Foster (27:52):
I appreciate you doing this and I appreciate our friendship and all of the brainstorming that went into creating this. And it’s really been a labor of love, you said at the beginning. It’s been a labor of love, love, and I’ve really enjoyed doing it with you. And now let’s get to that special announcement. I couldn’t ever begin to describe the impact that hosting a podcast has had on me, and it’s absolutely going to continue into the future. It’s just going to look a little different. I never want to lose sight of how important it is to highlight the impact that women have made on the legal industry. And I really believe in the purpose of this podcast highlighting fierce females who are changing the world. But there’s a lot going on in the legal industry right now. And at Affinity, we’re very focused on helping law firms transform how they get their work done and how their businesses are run.
(28:59):
And so the focus of this podcast is going to change just a little bit, and we’re going to talk a little bit more about how law firms can be prepared for the future. And that’s going to highlight law firm leaders who are doing amazing work in their firms to get ready for what’s next in the legal industry. And it’s also going to include women who are trailblazing, and it’s going to include some men who are trailblazing too. There’s a lot going on, and we are so excited to share the stories of law Firm transformation in season three that you’re going to hear about more in the coming months, and we’re going to officially launch that at the beginning of 2025. So I hope you’ll join us for the next topic in what I think has been an amazing series about how the legal industry has changed and how it’s going to change in the future. See you on the other side, and that’s a wrap. Are you feeling inspired? Take that energy and go make a difference today. And don’t forget to subscribe to Keep up with our latest episodes. And if today’s show really resonated with you, share this episode with your friends and colleagues. You’ll also find some resources and ways to connect in the show notes. So until our next episode, get out there and change the world.