Welcome to Powerful Leaders, No Apologies.
Welcome to the Powerful Leaders, No Apologies podcast! We’re excited to share our first episode with you! Today, Beth and Debbie interview law firm executive director and podcast host, Amanda Koplos, about her journey to become a powerful leader. One of her key learnings is that leaders should train people so they can leave you, but treat them so they will stay.
Links from the episode:
Women Apologize More than Men, article from Inc.
Mostly Legal Podcast
[05:23] What is inspiring you right now?
[18:26] Where did people count you out?
[25:26] What is your leadership superpower?
Debbie Foster (00:03):
Welcome to the Powerful Leaders, No Apologies podcast, the show about women who are ready to own their power and change the world. My name is Debbie Foster.
Beth Thompson (00:12):
And I’m Beth Thompson. Our guests are fierce and fabulous women who are making a difference in their personal and professional communities. Are you ready to be inspired? If so, stay tuned and also check out our website affinityconsulting.com/powerfulleaders. Here’s the show.
Debbie Foster (00:34):
Well, Beth, we did it. We’re here. It’s episode one.
Beth Thompson (00:38):
I can’t believe we’re here already and it’s 2023 and we’re starting it off with a bang with an amazing guest. So I’m ready to do this.
Debbie Foster (00:46):
Yeah, me too. Amanda Koplos, welcome to Powerful Leaders. No apologies. We are so excited to have you as our first guest.
Amanda Koplos (00:55):
Thank you for having me. I don’t know that I’m a powerful leader, but I really appreciate the invitation.
Beth Thompson (01:01):
We think you are
Debbie Foster (01:02):
<laugh>. We think you are. And not only do we think you are, but I’m pretty sure that when people listen in to get to the end of this, they’re going to be like, why did she say she wasn’t a powerful leader? You got a lot going on. So tell us a little bit about yourself. What current role, that kind of stuff give a little background.
Amanda Koplos (01:16):
So I have been managing law firms for 17 years, 11 months and four days. It’ll be 18 years counting next. Who’s counting? Yeah, but also I, I’m not very good at math, so No, I’m just kidding. I’m crazy weird about math. But so I’ve been doing that for about 18 years. I fell into the role. I got my M B A and I was looking for an accounting controller type position. There was this law firm who said, we need somebody really strong in finance and we don’t want them to have law firm experience. So I went in, didn’t know what I didn’t know. It was like an insane rollercoaster. I’m now on my third law firm. I’m the executive director for a law firm based in central Florida. We have 50 attorneys, 48 to 50 depending on the day of the week. And I manage all of the firm’s operations, hr, accounting, marketing, <laugh>. IT records. What am I missing?
Debbie Foster (02:15):
Well, I think if I ask you what a typical day in the life is, just what you rattled off there, I’m guessing that there isn’t a typical day in your life.
Amanda Koplos (02:24):
There is not. I fully embrace the other duties as a signed line in my job description today. I had to walk around the office because something was smelling and the person who normally handles it when something smells was not here. And so I’m walking around sniffing into people’s offices, physically going. It’ll be like, why is she sniffing me? So I fully embrace the other duties as a side, although that’s not typically what I do on a daily basis. Just sometimes you’re stuck smelling people.
Beth Thompson (02:58):
I hope you found the culprit, whatever, or whoever it was.
Amanda Koplos (03:02):
I eventually found the person whose actual job it is to smell things and delegate it to her. But it smelled very Ben gay Dixie, like Vix Maple Rub. But it was very, very intense though.
Debbie Foster (03:14):
One of the things I love about that though is I feel like for me, it’s not uncommon for me to say, we just had lunch. I’m just going to take those two trash bags out, right? Because they stink. I have had people say, you don’t have to take, I’ll take it. And I’m like, no, no. I have legs that walk and I can go right on over there to that trash can. Don’t worry about it. Yeah, I think that’s actually a rarely mentioned quality of a leader is that we are stepping up and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Other duties as assigned.
Amanda Koplos (03:49):
I preach to come from a place of yes to every single person who works for me, and I do it as well. If I hear somebody say, it’s not my job. That’s pretty much the last word you will say to me as an employee. Other than, no, I do not want to roll over my 401k into the one of my new <laugh> new company.
Beth Thompson (04:10):
Well, and coming from a place of Yes, that’s why you and Debbie get along so well for so long because that’s exactly what she does as well. I would imagine when you were a little girl, you weren’t dreaming of being an executive director in a law firm one day. What did you think you were going to do when you grew up?
Amanda Koplos (04:24):
I always knew I was going to run something like the world is a your oyster, right? I always knew I wanted to be in charge. I knew I wanted to be a businesswoman of some sort. I mean, I originally went to college to do advertising. I wanted to be a high powered advertising executive. I’m sure I saw it on tv, but I wonder, wear the business suits and the heels and do that kind of thing. And so that is basically what I wanted to do. Law firm administration just fell into that as we know. <laugh>.
Beth Thompson (04:53):
Debbie Foster (04:54):
So one of the things that I love to hear from other leaders is what’s inspiring you right now? Are you watching anything? Are you reading anything? Are you connected to anyone on social media? Is there anything that kind of stands out as a, this is something that I get a lot of, I want to aspire to be something different or add more to my leadership repertoire? Anything like that that is happening in your life right now?
Amanda Koplos (05:23):
So I recently got elected as President elect Elect of the Association of Legal Administrators, which is an organization that has, I wrote this down 9,300 and something members, which is the largest we’ve been in many, many years. And it’s an organization devoted exclusively to people who manage either law firms or legal departments of corporate or they’re in government legal positions. And it was a huge leap for me. It came from a big place of vulnerability because you really do put yourself out there, and the negative self-talk that happens, and I don’t know if it’s just me or it happens to anybody doing this sort of thing, but the negative self-talk was overwhelming running up to this election. And so now as I look forward through the next, it’s 18 months before they let me be president, they really, you know, have a lot of training and I need a little bit more than anybody because I got some rough edges to smooth out.
But as I look forward to that, I think what I’m really looking for is wanting to reach out to some of these powerful leaders who have done this before and saying, what did you do? How did you inspire? We have some riffs that we have to build bridges right now. And so it’s just figuring out how I can be the best at that. I only read for fun. I only read fiction. I know everybody says you’re supposed to read the business books and all of that, but when I walk out of here or get out of here, I read fiction. I just finished reading Celeste ing Our Missing Hearts. I love all of the stuff from her. I listen to a lot of audio books, but it’s all for fun. I’m not that good person that reads leadership books.
Beth Thompson (07:05):
Well, insider tip for you, there’s this new podcast called Powerful Leaders. No apologies. It’s going to have great leadership and you’re going to be able to follow that podcast.
Amanda Koplos (07:13):
I will promise I will listen to this podcast. Perfect. At least my episode because Awesome. My touch of narcissism will come out and I’ll want to hear myself speak
Beth Thompson (07:23):
Debbie Foster (07:24):
So Amanda, I think that ALA story that you just shared and the whole negative self-talk and how it’s so easy for us as women, and I’m sure this happens to men too, but it’s so easy for us as women. Some people call it imposter syndrome, some call it like I don’t know, am I good enough? Am I worthy? Am I going to do a good job? What are people going to think about me? There’s so much that goes into that. But this journey of yours starting with, I think it was the Austin chapter of the a l a, right? Because you were originally from Texas and you were a big deal in the Austin chapter of the A l a, and then you moved to Orlando and then you got, tell us a little bit about that journey because I think that being brave and vulnerable and raising your hand or sometimes being voluntold, having your hand raised for you, we don’t realize how impactful that is to us as leaders until we get into it and we’re like, oh wait, there’s actually something here. So I’d love to hear a little bit more about your Austin journey to Orlando and then to national.
Amanda Koplos (08:29):
Yeah, so I took my job. I was telling you I was young. I, I was 25 when I took this role managing this law firm in Austin, a pretty successful firm run by a guy who had run for governor of the state of Texas, had had the claim to fame of beating George W. Bush in a political election. Many, many, the only one bush ever lost. So it was a really powerful offer, and they put this kid in charge. I mean, literally they put a kid in charge and I didn’t know what I didn’t know. So I went to this lunch, somebody encouraged me to go to lunch, and I think Debbie, we need to have T-shirts that say a l a. It all started with the lunch. Yeah, because that’s what happened first lunch, you go there, I shook a few hands, I get in the elevator and a long time member.
So what committee are you going to join? The next thing you know you’re on a committee. And then because you’re an overachiever who never says no, and who always wants to do the absolute best next thing, you’re Secretary of the association and then you’re the chapter’s youngest president ever. And then they’re wondering, where did this girl come from and why is she blowing everything up? Because I really did. I came in and created some rocky ground because the chapter had existed for a long time, but there were some kind of fundamental things that needed to be fixed. And so I kind of blew it all up. And that journey and just in leadership of when I go on job interviews, somebody would say, well, give me an example of your leadership experience. The firm leadership experience is one thing, but it was never the true leadership experience leading a group of leaders, being a type and leading a bunch of other type A is where all of that experience comes from. And so I encourage people who want to be, and to get leadership skills if they can’t get it at their firm, to go and find an organization like this where we’re craving volunteer leaders. Any single person who manages a law firm who would like to volunteer and be a elected leader, there’s no yellow brick road. I have a stack of positions available right now, and you’re going to get mantled just like I did. Basically.
Beth Thompson (10:41):
Such an awesome beginning. And just a fun fact, Debbie and I met volunteering with a l a,
Amanda Koplos (10:47):
Yeah, years ago, I believe that did start with a lunch or was it in a conference?
Debbie Foster (10:51):
It might have been in Hawaii. Yeah, maybe it might have been in Hawaii.
Amanda Koplos (10:54):
I planned that conference was part of the thing.
Beth Thompson (10:57):
Well then, hey, it’s all, we’ll give you credit.
Amanda Koplos (10:59):
And I didn’t get to go. I didn’t get to go because very, we had a very young kid and at the last minute, couple weeks before, I just couldn’t make it work. So I worked for 18 months planning a conference I didn’t get to.
Beth Thompson (11:11):
Wow, you missed a good one. A fun one.
Debbie Foster (11:14):
Yeah. One of my favorite memories is that every day at the conference, we had lunch at Subway, there was a subway right across the street from the Honolulu Convention Center, and we had lunch at that subway every day. But tell me a little bit about how you went from chapter to national. Where did you start that journey?
Amanda Koplos (11:32):
It all comes down to mentors. It all comes down to somebody and holding you. The second law firm I worked at was a large national firm, and we had a director of HR who was very active on the association’s diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility committee. And she said, that committee needs a volunteer, so will you do it? Okay, so it’s a three year, four year commitment, and you’re working with a committee and in a volunteership you are working, right? I’m doing presentations, yeah, I’m doing social media tweets, managing all of that. And so when that kind of came to an end, at the end of the three years, I was like, okay, well what do I want to do next? And so I volunteered to be chair of a conference committee, our annual conference, and I volunteered to be chair of one year thinking that I was not going to get it, and I would get the next year, which is what I really wanted to do.
And when I didn’t get that first year, somebody called and said, you know what? You should just apply to be on the board. And I said, no, no, no. I’ve seen those people sitting up there. I don’t belong up there. I don’t belong with those people. Are you kidding? They have years. They a l I used to have regions and we used to have regional directors and all those things, and that’s not me. And the person said, look, you’re right. Most people don’t get in on the first try, but try try because all you have to lose is hours of sleep and your negative self-talk and more gray hairs, and you’re going to need your Botox done sooner, like I talked about before. And so I applied, didn’t think I was going to get it. Got it. It’s a lot of work. And it’s like the same thing of being president.
I did not think I was going to be elected as president on my first try. And so that’s the path. But my path is both unique and also the same. We all aspire to have a certain amount of involvement, but it’s surprising to me how many people are afraid to, we’re looking for some conference chairs right now, and it’s surprising to me how many people are, oh, I, I’m not ready for that. Well, we wouldn’t put you in something that you’re not ready for and we’re never going to leave you stranded, so you’re going to be fine.
Beth Thompson (13:40):
Take the risk. I think the lesson here for anyone listening who has not stepped up because they’re thinking that they’re not ready or they’re not going to be chosen, put yourself out there anyway because it does lead to great things. And if one thing we can guarantee is if you don’t put yourself out there, you will not be chosen.
Amanda Koplos (13:56):
Debbie Foster (13:57):
That’s so true.
Amanda Koplos (13:58):
And getting a little bit of no is good also, right? Yeah. Not getting it is good. It’s a little bit of an ego blow, but sometimes that’s helpful to sit back and say, okay, let me reflect on it. Was that the right thing for me? Maybe. But now I got to find something else. That’s right for me,
Debbie Foster (14:15):
I have a woman that I’m mentoring right now that works for a firm in Illinois. I did a strategic planning retreat for them. She had never heard of the A L a, and I was like, you got to get involved. She’s like, what is it? Where would I go? And she’s in southern Illinois, so she doesn’t have a chapter close to her, Indianapolis as close. And she got involved in Chicago and she started reading. She got all in, she started reading, she applied to be on P D A C, and she got chosen to be on the professional development committee.
Amanda Koplos (14:44):
Debbie Foster (14:44):
I just had a call with her the other day and she was talking about how she’s surrounded by these who are superstars. They have so much experience and she’s like a sponge, soaking it in. And I listen to that, and I think so many of us who have been doing this for a long time don’t stop and recognize the value of our role in someone who’s less experienced or younger or just starting out on their journey. They’re looking at us in the same way that you were looking at those people on the stage saying, I don’t belong up there.
Amanda Koplos (15:20):
I don’t belong up there. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Debbie Foster (15:22):
I love that.
Amanda Koplos (15:23):
Debbie, a lot of ala past presidents, and we’re talking about they are the best of the best, the best of the best. Smartest in the room, the most influential, the kindest. And so I think, oh man, I’m just kidding. They’re going to break the mold on this one. I dunno.
Debbie Foster (15:43):
No, I love that story. I do want to ask you something else. I mean, I know that I’d love to say what’s your favorite podcast and have you say this podcast, but I do want to just talk for a minute about one of my favorite podcasts that you happen to be a co-host on. Wow. The mostly legal podcast.
Amanda Koplos (15:58):
Debbie Foster (15:59):
That podcast has made me spit a drink out, laughing <laugh>, get a little teary. Yeah, it’s been inspiring. It’s been terrifying at sometimes listening to some of the people’s stories and how they got where they got, but Right. I’d love a little 60 seconds on co-hosting a podcast. I mean, this is our first episode.
Amanda Koplos (16:20):
Well, you were a guest on the podcast, so you can attest that we’re not very well structured or planned, but the impetus of this was to be storytellers. So it’s very similar to what this show was. We really wanted to be storytellers and say, Beth, just like you said a minute ago, you didn’t grow up wanting to be a law firm administrator. Well, that really is what our whole podcast is about is you didn’t grow up to be this. Now, tell everybody what this is, what you do, and that sort of thing. So it has been so much fun. We really do. We just have a blast. And Rob, who’s the co-hosts and I, we’re just friends. We’re just good friends and I think it works really well because of that. We we’re having to take a step back and reevaluate some stuff in 23 and what does that look like for us? But I’ve never had any negative feedback about the impact of it. And it really is just us making fun. And I think that people who don’t work in law firms can still get some things from it. Definitely. We had some guests on Inky Johnson, Alex Sue, who are huge name brand people in the marketing or in the pub, motivational speaking kind of realm. So yeah, mean we’ve got three seasons out there, so listen away.
Beth Thompson (17:34):
Yeah, it’s a great one. I love it too. And you’re right, I think certainly those of us involved in the legal community get something out of it, but you can get something out of it regardless of what professional or personal path you’re on really. It’s a good mixture of the two. Yeah, quite frankly, there’ve been some really inspiring personal stories. I think that can certainly help people.
Amanda Koplos (17:54):
And as a note, do not go looking for a podcast called Barely Legal. The search on that is not good, will not return <laugh>, the search results certainly don’t do it on a work computer. It is mostly
Debbie Foster (18:07):
Legal <laugh>, mostly legal. Got it.
Amanda Koplos (18:09):
Beth Thompson (18:10):
Debbie Foster (18:11):
So Amanda, where did people count you out? What was hard? Where did you have to keep showing up and raising your hand? We’ve all had to climb or claw our way up, something somewhere along the way. I’d love to hear a story of yours.
Amanda Koplos (18:26):
I think it still happens to me on a regular basis. I had a really good friend remind me recently that when I meet people, I’m always reading my resume to them because I feel like I have to prove myself and prove what I do is valuable to other people. And I will meet somebody and not even realize that I’m reading my resume. I’ll say something like, oh yeah, I got my M mba and it’s like was so many years ago, it doesn’t matter now. Or I’ll say like, oh yeah, I’m a cpa. Well, yeah, but I mean, I don’t trust me with your taxes or with any, anything that actually has to go before the I R S in anyway. In my case, CPA A stands for Can’t Pass again, <laugh>,
Beth Thompson (19:09):
Amanda Koplos (19:10):
But I’m always reading my resume to people. My friend pointed that out to me, and so I thought, why do I do that? And it’s because of the imposter syndrome. We talked about that a little bit ago, but people count me out even if they don’t, I’m afraid they will. And I think it’s because that had happened from very young early age things happened that you weren’t selected for something. I graduated salutatorian and still a valedictorian. I didn’t win most likely to succeed. So since 19, I have been pushing hard to prove that I was most likely to succeed and should have won this back in 20 what years ago that I graduated high school. So I think it still happens, and I talked about that negative, but I’m this scrappy little kid from the sticks. Don’t count me out. I mean, I ate food from a food bank. We came from a thousand square feet, six people, a dad who made minimum wage, a mom who was disabled from a mental illness. And when you come from that, you’re fighting your whole life, you’re fighting. And I don’t think people realize that I’m coming from a place of a good heart, but also it is about don’t count me out because you’re about to get a <laugh> fight for everything
Beth Thompson (20:28):
That probably fuels you too. I know what most of us that are scrappy, just thinking that somebody’s counting you out just says, oh no, I’m going to show you right now. Don’t underestimate me. Yeah, for sure.
Debbie Foster (20:39):
That’s awesome. I love that. All right, Amanda. So our show is called Powerful Leaders. No apologies. All right. So we got the powerful leader part down if pretty, so you’re say powerful leader. But I want to talk about apologizing because when we were putting this show together and we were coming up with our ideas for how to really be impactful when it comes to inspiring women who are ready to change the world, we started thinking about this idea and this maybe phenomenon you might call it, about how often we apologize. So I’ve done some research, and I’m going to put this link in the show notes, but there’s an article from Inc Magazine about why women apologize more than men do, and it’s really interesting. But one of the things that is a big takeaway from me is that women’s bar for what is offensive is much lower. And that’s why we apologize more because if you emailed me yesterday and I didn’t respond to you until today, guess what I’m going to start off my email with?
Amanda Koplos (21:44):
I’m so sorry for my delayed response.
Debbie Foster (21:46):
I’m so sorry for my delayed response. Guilty. And we have no margin for forgiveness for ourselves. And so we lead off with apologies. And I’ve really been watching how often I do that. I’ll start to type, I’m sorry for the delay in responding, and then I’ll back up and say thank you for your patience, because that’s actually something I read in an article instead of saying, I’m sorry, say thank you for your patience, but how does that resonate with you, the women having a tendency to apologize more? Do you see that in yourself?
Amanda Koplos (22:16):
I do. Some of it is because I usually am more offensive. So <laugh>, it’s not just a threshold. I was carried across that threshold with a bulldozer and pulled over the threshold for that. But I do find that’s true. I do find myself apologizing for things, and I don’t want it to be man bashing, but I do work with men who would never apologize for the same thing that I have done. And if I come out of my office and I’m a little angry about something and it’s forceful, I try not to do that. I’m not a yeller. I’m not a screamer. I furrow my brow. People know when I’m not happy, but I’ll come back later and say, oh my God, I’m so sorry. I was passionate about that. I just heard so-and-so yell 10 times louder. And he didn’t come down here and apologize. And so yes, we do. Gosh, I shouldn’t search my inbox for how many times I have sent the word, sorry. And maybe let’s compare it to some male counterparts and I bet it’s 10 times. Yeah, I bet it’s 10 times. I bet you’re right.
Debbie Foster (23:16):
Well, and I think we’ve talked about like are we going to have swag for our podcast? And we have envisioned this hat that says, I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry. I
Amanda Koplos (23:27):
Would buy that hat you buy look great in a hat, Debbie, I look great in a hat. So you send me one and I will wear it. Or the whole, sorry, not sorry. I’m millennial of us.
Beth Thompson (23:39):
We have mostly legal, so I feel like the hat’s on us probably. But
Amanda Koplos (23:43):
Debbie Foster (23:44):
Yeah. Yeah, the hat’s on us for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s something that, especially as we’ve been putting together this show, something I’ve been really, really conscious about. I want to apologize every single time I owe someone an apology and I want to stop apologizing all of the other times and use different words and not, I mean sometimes for me too, the imposter syndrome or somebody’s going to figure me out, I didn’t really belong up here, or I’m speaking at an ALA conference and I’m like, no one’s going to show up to my session.
Amanda Koplos (24:16):
Debbie Foster (24:16):
No one’s going to show up to my session rightly. I still think about stuff like that. And it’s definitely something that we all, because as leaders, we are mentors whether we are officially mentoring or not, and we are setting examples for people that we’re bringing along with us on this journey. So this whole thinking about how often we AP we apologize is something that I think can change things for us if we really stop and say, is this actually a place where I should apologize or should I just answer the question at hand and move on?
Amanda Koplos (24:49):
Right. I agree.
Debbie Foster (24:50):
Okay, so last segment. We’re asking this question of all of our guests.
Amanda Koplos (24:55):
Debbie Foster (24:56):
What is your leadership superpower? What do you think is the thing that you do really well? Another one of my observations of myself and a lot of other professional women that I work with is we hesitate to toot our own horns and talk about something that we’re really good at. I want to know what you are really good at from a leadership perspective. And I’d love an example or something for you to talk a little bit about your superpower. What is it?
Amanda Koplos (25:23):
So I think my leadership superpower is my philosophy that you train people so they can leave you and treat ’em right, so they will stay. And what I mean by that is if somebody wants continuing education and it’s not going to help them in their immediate job and it may help them in a future job, it doesn’t mean you don’t give them that training. You are training them so that they will be in a better spot and they will work harder for you while they are with you. Because I would rather have two years of a good person than 10 years of a mediocre person. And I have had assistants work with me. I had one assistant follow me to two different companies, and I got him another job not too long ago. I have a marketing person that just left and she cried on her last day and she said, I wanted to stay with you.
And I said, but you wanted to be a marketing director and I don’t have that role. And while you are here, I sponsored you in L M A, the Legal Marketing Association. I let you be, I mean, not let you be, but I encourage you to be on their board of directors. I sent you to conferences I sent you to education sessions. This firm did not need a marketing director with that background and that experience, and that wasn’t really to help your job here. Now, she left a little earlier than I was hoping, but that’s an unintended consequence. But my leadership superpower, I really strongly, firmly believe that you train people and you give them skills even if you don’t need that skill in your current firm or their current position because they will be happier in what they are doing. And eventually when they do leave, you never know they could refer somebody back to you later, you might circle back around and maybe someday I’m running an AMWA 100 firm and I need a C M O and who’s going to work for me? That girl who I helped to lift it up from a marketing coordinator to a marketing manager 10 years ago,
Beth Thompson (27:26):
That is such great advice. I will say you have set the bar so high, Amanda, for yes. This has been amazing.
Debbie Foster (27:33):
I love that. I love that so much that I can’t wait to listen to it again, because it’s such a great point. Invest in your people. I immediately thought of that little meme where like the c e O says, we should invest in our people, and the C o O says, but what if they leave? And right. They say, but what if they stay and we don’t, right? Yeah. So no, I love that. That’s so good. Amanda, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We will never forget that you are the first guest.
Amanda Koplos (28:02):
Nobody is ever going to forget. And if you have people, listen to this one and then a second one, we’ll be even happier.
Debbie Foster (28:08):
<laugh>. We’ll send everyone who comes back for the second one. I’m not sorry, hat,
Amanda Koplos (28:12):
I’m not sorry. Yes,
Debbie Foster (28:13):
We got, we got to get the hats. But yeah, we’re going to send everyone that. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank guys. And we cannot wait to watch what you do at
Amanda Koplos (28:20):
Ladies. I’m watching my language. Thank you.
Beth Thompson (28:22):
It’s okay saying we respond to that even because that’s what we do, but
Amanda Koplos (28:26):
Yeah. Yes, we
Beth Thompson (28:27):
Debbie Foster (28:28):
Absolutely. Thanks, Amanda. Thank you.
Amanda Koplos (28:30):
Beth Thompson (28:34):
And that’s a wrap. Thanks for listening to Powerful Leaders Know Apologies. Be sure and subscribe to our show and help us spread the word by sharing our show with your network,
Debbie Foster (28:44):
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