Debbie Foster (00:03): 

Welcome to the Powerful Leaders. No Apologies podcast, a show about women who are ready to own their power and change the world. My name is Debbie Foster. 

  

Beth Thompson (00:12): 

And I’m Beth Thompson. Our guests are fierce and fabulous women who are making a difference in their personal and professional communities. Are you ready to be inspired? If so, stay tuned and also check out our website at affinityconsulting.com/powerful eaders. Here’s the show. 

  

Debbie Foster (00:34): 

Well, Beth, we’re back for another episode of Powerful Leaders. No apologies. I am super excited about today’s episode. 

  

Beth Thompson (00:42): 

I am too. One of the things that I was thinking about this morning, Debbie, is so far, and we’re what, 11, 12 episodes in now. We have had conversations with women that we’ve known throughout the years in some capacity in our journeys here in the legal industry. And this is the first opportunity I think that we’ve had to talk to someone that we were introduced to that came highly recommended by someone that we both admire and respect very much, which I’ll let you talk a little bit about that and how we came to meet our guest today. But it’s going to be a great episode. I’m super excited. 

  

Debbie Foster (01:17): 

It is. And it’s June of 2023, and this episode is airing right at the end of Pride Month, and we’re so excited to welcome Lisa Linsky to our show. Now, Lisa came to us because she is a dear friend of one of our really great friends, Ari Kaplan, and for anyone listening who knows Ari, he’s like the mayor of the United States of America for every single segment of legal and probably some other things that I don’t even know about. And we could do a whole episode on Ari, and maybe someday we will, because he’s such an amazing guy. But when I talked to Ari about our podcast, he said, you have to meet Lisa. And I said, well, please make an introduction. And Lisa and I had a great call and we kicked it off, and I told Beth how excited I was and it’s so appropriate and timely that we’re having Lisa on. And this episode is going to be released during 2020 threes Pride month. And with that, Lisa, I want to say welcome and I would love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners. 

  

Lisa Linsky (02:25): 

Well, thank you for that lovely introduction. I’m so excited to be here. Excited with you, Deb and Beth, and very grateful to my dear friend Ari Kaplan for this introduction. And I’m really thrilled to be here with you both during Pride Month. Pride is a big deal for those of us at McDermott and of course the community at large, and I hope that we’ll talk more about that a little bit later in our podcast together. But currently, I am a partner at McDermott, will and Emory based in the New York office. McDermott is an international law firm, full service law firm, and I’ve been with McDermott now over 20 years. And 

  

Debbie Foster (03:03): 

McDermott’s a tiny little firm, right? 

  

Lisa Linsky (03:06): 

No, no. McDermott is a mighty force in the legal profession. McDermott is considered big law, meaning it is a large international law firm. We have just over 1400 Lawyerist in numerous locations throughout the United States, through Europe, Asia. So we’re a very large player in this game. 

  

Debbie Foster (03:29): 

Yes. Yeah, it’s nice to put that out there because well, when someone says McDermott, Beth and I know exactly what that means, not everybody does. So I love sharing those stories. So the McDermott is doing some really, really cool things, and I want to keep this focused on you. I’d love for you to tell us a little bit about your story at McDermott because when you and I spoke, you shared with me some of the pioneering things that you’ve done around diversity, which were crazy impressive. And that story is a story to be shared. 

  

Lisa Linsky (04:04): 

Sure, I’d be happy to talk to you about that. So I should really begin by saying, before I came to McDermott, I was a prosecutor. I was prosecutor in the Westchester County District Attorney’s office, whereas my colleagues and I used to say, we did God’s work, love the work there, challenging, interesting, hard, gritty. We ran, or I ran a special prosecution’s division where we did domestic violence, child abuse, adult sex crimes, and family related homicides. And honestly, I thought I would stay at that job for the rest of my career. It was that important and the work was important, and I felt that I was really contributing, which was in large part why I went to law school. But life has a way of throwing you other opportunities when you least expect it. And an opportunity arose for me to join McDermott. And I thought I was at a point in my life, in my career where a change was probably the right thing to do. 

  

(05:04): 

I wanted to expand my legal skills. I had been a criminal prosecutor up until that point my entire career. And this opportunity at McDermott would enable me to become a civil defense practitioner. And that was really appealing, the idea of just immersing myself in new areas of the law, seeing what the opportunities would be, where they would take me. And long story short, I joined McDermott. And when I got there, I was immediately thrown into doing civil commercial litigation type work. And it was very interesting and I learned a lot, but I really thought that my days of public service were over. And that frankly made me a little sad because as I said, I’m the kind of person, so many of my colleagues across the world who went to law school to be impactful, to be transformative, to make a difference. And while I know that I was helping my clients in this context at McDermott, I felt like I was longing for something in addition to this civil practice. 

  

(06:10): 

And as fate would have it, and I do think it was fate, I got a knock on my door one day from one of my partners who said, listen, you’re the only gay lawyer we know at the firm. Now, mind you, we were about 1200 Lawyerist back then. And he said, I just volunteered you to do something. I think it’s going to be a good thing. So with that kind of an introduction, I said, should I be scared? And he said, no, no, don’t be scared. You got this. I said, well, what is it that you want me to do? He said, well, we have a gender diversity committee here at the firm. We have a diversity committee for racially and ethnically diverse Lawyerist, but we don’t have anything for gay Lawyerist. And we were addressing a summer class, and they had questions about being gay and being out at McDermott, and we didn’t know how to respond to their questions. 

  

(07:03): 

They wanted to know, for example, are there out partners at McDermott? You were the only one we knew about. Well, they wanted to know if they could be on a path to partnership. Were there partners they could speak with who were LGBTQ plus? So he said, after this presentation, the chairs of our two committees decided it was time to do something for gay Lawyerist, and I volunteered you. So I took a deep breath and I said, okay, so do I have people who want to do this with me who want to be on this committee? No. Oh gosh, you’ll have to figure it out. I said, okay, alright, well, what about a budget? Because I’m going to need a budget surely to really make an impact. No budget. I said, okay, so you’re tasking me with something that sounds pretty impossible. And he laughed and he said, my money’s on you. 

  

(07:54): 

And he walked out of my office, and I remember where I was sitting that day because I thought either this is really the universe intervening and responding to my call for doing something else at the firm and in the community that was bigger than just my law practice or this was going to be a disaster. So I opted for the former, and I have to tell you, it’s one of the best things I’ve ever done in my career. And I’ve had a lot of moments where I feel proud about my contributions to different communities, to different people. But the creation of the L G B T Diversity Inclusion Committee at McDermott, the program that we’ve created that we’ve kept going since 2005, not only, but my firm has been tremendously supportive and very, very proud of, 

  

Debbie Foster (08:46): 

Wow, 18 years ago, that conversation, 18 years ago is a very different conversation than if someone were having it today. 

  

Lisa Linsky (08:55): 

Very much so. McDermott was actually the first big law firm to create an LGBTQ plus diversity equity inclusion committee of its kind. And it was noticed. It was noticed not only among major bt, a nonprofit organizations like Lambda Legal, the Human Rights Commission, immigration Equality, all of whom became our pro bono partners in this space, but it was noticed by other big law firms. And I received so many calls from colleagues at other firms saying, how did you do it? What did you do? How did you get a budget? Which was, that’s a story unto itself. But the fact is it seemed to me that I was tasked with an important mission, and it was important within McDermott for our colleagues to know that McDermott was a safe space for them. It was a top place to work. And within a matter of a few weeks, we tweaked our policies, our policies that included gender expression and identity, a sexual orientation such that we applied to the human rights campaign’s Corporate equality index, which is a workplace survey basically where they have certain metrics, they ask you a number of questions and you get scored on the questions. 

  

(10:22): 

And the goal has always been since they started this for law firms back in 2006, to get on that corporate equality index, it was a blue ribbon stamp of approval from an L G B T organization that had the name recognition. And when you got a hundred percent score on the corporate equality index, this meant that you were considered a best place to work in the country for L G B T Q workers. And within a couple of weeks of just launching our committee, we changed our policies. We made the corporate equality index with a hundred percent score, and we were one of just a handful of law firms in the country to have accomplished that. 

  

Beth Thompson (11:08): 

That’s amazing. I think that Debbie used the word pioneering earlier, and as I was chatting with Lisa before we started, the word pioneer kept running through my mind. And I know there are many examples, but I would love to hear what are some of the obstacles and challenges you’ve faced, whether personally or professionally? We’ve already heard you were asked to create this committee with no budget and no help initially. That certainly is a challenge, and you rose to the occasion, but share with our listeners some of the challenges you’ve faced over the years and how you rose to the occasion and dealt with those. 

  

Lisa Linsky (11:45): 

Sure. Well, it is pride month. And for those of your listeners who may be LGBTQ plus or just allies, I think that the first response to your question, Beth, is about coming out at work because believe it or not, even though we’ve come so far in this country with the recognition that most people have an LGBTQ plus brother, sister, neighbor, friend, other family member, the truth is that there aren’t as many people who are out in the workplace as one might think, given the progress of the community in general. And when I came to McDermott, as I said, I had had a full career as a prosecutor. I was very well known. I was well regarded by my community, then the judges people across the country who knew of my work. But I wasn’t out in the early years of my career as prosecutor. I only came out about five, six years into it when my deputy bureau chief took me to lunch one day and we sat down and she said, I have to ask you something. 

  

(12:59): 

I said, okay, what is it? She said, are you gay? And honestly, I was shocked. I was shocked because I thought I passed so well as a straight cisgendered woman. And I thought, how did she know that? Why did she sense that about me? I was dating men at the time. I was not in a relationship with a woman. And that was all in a flash, by the way. All of those thoughts were in a flash and just my gut was to just say yes, because that was the truth. And her reaction after I responded surprised me. She said, I’m so happy and I’m so relieved. And I said, why? She said, because I really like you and I really want to be friends with you. And I felt like this was in our way. There was something in our way. And that was a very valuable lesson for me as a young lawyer. 

  

(13:51): 

I was in a prosecutor’s office and I didn’t feel that I could be authentic about who I really was. And my friend, who is one of my best friends to this day, she kind of gave me that, I dunno if permission’s the right word, but she gave me a peace of mind about acceptance. And unfortunately, so many LGBTQ plus people grapple with that fear of rejection, whether it’s from their families or their bosses or their colleagues, it’s a real pressure. So all of that to say that when I got to McDermott, I was out to an extent by then. I was with my partner. We had a child, everyone close to me, my family, my friends, they all knew that I was a gay woman. But coming out on an international level, in an organization like McDermott, which is such a large corporation in effect, that was a horse of a different color. 

  

(14:51): 

And when I realized that I was going to take on this mission, I thought, well, this means coming out on a much larger stage. And I didn’t know back then how it would impact my career. I didn’t know how it would impact the way my colleagues viewed me. And I remembered what Elizabeth had given me, the gift that she had given me when we talked that day at lunch. And I thought, well, now’s the time. Now’s the time, because how can I authentically lead an initiative, a diversity and inclusion initiative like this one without having the courage to be out as I needed to be at that time? And so that was really my first challenge. And a corollary to that is after I was out and people knew who I was, the corollary was that I would get calls from colleagues saying, I think what you’re doing is amazing. 

  

(15:51): 

I would love to volunteer, but I’m not out at work, or I don’t want to be known as the gay lawyer. I want people to judge me for my work, not for my sexual orientation or my gender identity. And I had a lot of conversations with colleagues about that and about what I feel is the responsibility of leaders to be authentic. And if you are lgbtq plus, to be out to the best that you can, I realize that I am very blessed to live in New York State, to work in New York City, and to be with an organization that not only values all forms of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but embraces it and has built a culture around those values. Those values are important to us as an organization. It’s the way we best serve our clients. Yes, we have the substantive expertise, of course, but as you know, when you’re working with clients and in relationship with clients, it’s so much more than the substantive expertise. 

  

(16:58): 

It’s emotional intelligence, it’s leadership, it’s teamwork, and it’s coming at the problems with that ability to think differently. I have a tagline on my email in my signature block that says, think differently, act powerfully. And that really sums it up for me. Yes, there were other challenges like getting a budget. And I remember going to my chairman at the time, different gentleman, lovely man really was behind this diversity initiative but didn’t want to give me any money for it. Frankly, he didn’t understand the business case for diversity, equity, and inclusion. I went back to him three times. The first time he listened to me, it was a very pleasant conversation, but he turned me down The second time I went back with data, I went back with reports showing the business case for diversity, equity, and inclusion, particularly in the L G B T Q space. 

  

(18:05): 

He was very impressed. I called it a motion to re-argue. I said, I’m going to try again. Here’s my motion to re-argue. And I gave him reports and data and he read everything. And he came back and he said, look, I don’t mean to be negative. I support this initiative however, I want to see us out in the communities that we serve. I want to see you bringing in high profile pro bono cases like with Lambda Legal, for example, impact litigation. And I said, yes, that’s all great, and that’s what we plan to do. But you see, you need to support these groups by support them, provide pro bono assistance before they will come to us and say, we would like McDermott to partner with us. So time two, he said, got it. No. And I was a little defeated. I have to admit, after two times, and I grappled with my myself, do I remain true to my gut? 

  

(19:03): 

Do I be as tenacious as I would be if I were trying a case or doing an investigation? Or do I just say, okay, I tried. I’ll give it a little time and I’ll come back to it later. Well, you can imagine what I chose. So I just called him one day. It was early in the morning, I was in the office. I called him and I said, look, because we had been communicating by email. I said, look, I would like to hop in my car and drive to see you. He was in a New England city. I should like to come see you, and I’d like to talk to you about this so I can maybe better explain to you why this budget is so important. And he said, oh, that’s not necessary, Lisa. No apologies needed. He said, but I don’t get it. 

  

(19:49): 

I don’t understand why you need the money to fund this initiative. So I said, if I may, let me explain it to you. And I went into what I call one of my best summations ever. And I explained it, and I walked him through it, and I talked, as you can see, I can talk. I talked for 20 minutes. And when I finished, I paused, and there was silence on the other end of the phone, and I didn’t know what was coming. And much to my very, very pleasant surprise, he said to me, well, thank you for reminding me why we hired you. He said, you make very persuasive arguments. He said, how much do you need right now? So I told him and he doubled it. And it was what I think of as seed money to really get this initiative off the ground. And it was an investment that has paid off in dividends all these years. 

  

Beth Thompson (20:48): 

Thank you for sharing that. I think that your persistence and tenacity are very inspiring. And so we would love to hear from you what or who inspires you? 

  

Lisa Linsky (20:58): 

Oh my goodness. There are so many people who have inspired me over the years. My parents and grandparents have been tremendously supportive of pretty much all of my endeavors from the time I was a child, whether it was learning the piano or being the lead in the school plays from elementary school on up through high school. And then when I came to them, this was my second year of law school, I had an opportunity to do an internship in the district attorney’s office. It was a tremendous opportunity and it was an unpaid position, and I really couldn’t afford financially to just take it on without working at some kind of a paid job. And this was a full-time position. It was Monday through Friday, nine to five, and I took on a job on the weekends, but it was not enough. And so I went to my parents and my grandparents, and I told them, I said, I don’t know what to do. 

  

(21:57): 

My grandfather, who was a big believer in me said, you take that internship. He said, it’s going to set the course for your career and we will subsidize you, which of course they did. And I’m forever grateful to them for helping me to get started because as it turned out, I was made an offer after completion of my internship. And the rest, as they say, is herstory. So that was great. And then of course, there’s so many other people along the way who have inspired me, encouraged me, Ari Kaplan being one of them. Ari is someone who’s always believed in me. I remember talking with Ari, this is a true story, talking with Ari, right after I was asked to take on this diversity and inclusion initiative at McDermott, and he was in my office and I said, Ari, I don’t know where to start. 

  

(22:50): 

He said, well, I have a suggestion for you. He said, start writing about what you’re doing. At that time, Ari was still with McDermott, but he was doing a lot of writing in all kinds of areas related to the legal profession, including technology, which was just starting to take hold in our profession. And he said, Lisa, you want to raise your own profile and that of McDermott’s start writing. So I ended up, again, the universe provided, I got an opportunity to write a book, and I had a colleague co-write it with me, and it was really about creating an l g, BT Q, diversity and Inclusion program and expanding the workplace culture for those colleagues who either identified as L g, BT Q or were allies. And then again, there was just no stopping after that. There were people who reached out to do interviews with me and talk about what I was doing, what the firm was doing, and it just took off. 

  

(23:50): 

So I would be remiss if I didn’t, again, acknowledge our mutual friend, Ari Kaplan, and then again, so many other people, one other person I’ll mention, because while I never actually met her, she served as an inspiration to me always. And that’s Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Talk about courage, talk about tenacity, talk about a visionary. I mean, this woman was all of those things and so much more. I remember where I was when I found out that she had passed away, and I cried. I cried because I felt like the world had lost a leader and a visionary and a spark. And we see what has happened since Ruth left us, since Justice Ginsburg left us. But she is, I’m sure, an inspiration to so many of us as women, as attorneys and just as attorneys in general. 

  

Debbie Foster (24:47): 

Those are really great. And we’re going to link to some of those resources, and of course to your book in our show notes. And I’m just, I know I think we’re going to go a few minutes over on this podcast, but I want to ask you something that’s a little off script. Sure. I’m going to ask you two questions actually. They’re kind of related. What you have done over the last almost 20 years is pretty amazing, and there’s probably a lot of people listening who are wondering how they could get started. One or two things that someone who is looking to put something in place in their firm or their organization that can be impactful. I’d love a couple of ideas there. And the part two of that question, Beth and I are leaders at Affinity. So using that as an example, what can we do as leaders that you would say is most impactful to support diversity, inclusion, belonging, LGBTQ plus the whole thing? What would be your advice to a firm to get started or an organization to get started and as a leader to be impactful? 

  

Lisa Linsky (25:53): 

Great questions. Really great questions. So to your first question about how would one get started, I think the initial step is to do an assessment of your organization, see what affinity groups, for example, your organization has, and those that it does not have. In McDermott’s case where we did not have an LGBTQ plus program back in the day, there was a need there. And I do credit the universe for putting me in the right place at the right time and presenting this opportunity for me. But I think whether it’s a diversity initiative or a practice group or some other business initiative in an organization, the first thing to do is to be hyper aware and to be hyper aware. I mean, to know your organization, to understand the culture because all organizations have a culture and see where the culture could use some enhancements, where it can be built up, what can be done better. 

  

(27:05): 

Don’t be afraid to take a critical look at your organization. It doesn’t necessarily mean there’s discontent, but it means that you’re able to be objective and see what you’re not doing or what you’re missing. There’s an expression that I love, which is you don’t know what you don’t know. So I think that’s something that sometimes gets in the way of organizational management. They just don’t know what they don’t know. And it’s so helpful to have other people within the organization who are coming with a different perspective or a different experience who can say, you know what? You need to do something for gay Lawyerist and staff. Or, you know what? You don’t have group that addresses this emerging set of issues in the legal profession. Or we see technology going in a different direction. Look at all the AI stuff now. It’s a controversial area. 

  

(28:05): 

We need people to be thinking out of the box, not just signing up for it because it’s the latest and greatest, but really looking at all of the implications. What does it mean from a human perspective, from the perspective of replacing people in their jobs? What are the ethical and moral obligations to human beings by repla? You know, yes, I’m sure there are a lot of efficiencies and other benefits, but we need that kind of perspective and we need people who are willing to speak out. Now, speaking out is an interesting topic. We could do a whole podcast on that. What does speaking out look like? Because speaking out looks different in different organizations, depends on the issues. I’ll give you one other example and I’ll wrap on the first question. And that is, so I’m a former child sex abuse and adult sex crimes prosecutor. 

  

(29:06): 

And when I got to McDermott, I never thought I would be doing that kind of work again. Just didn’t seem like there was a fit in the civil practice for that. Well, fast forward, I started to observe trends across the country and survivors groups advocating for the elimination or the extensions of statutes of limitations so that people who were allegedly molested as children would have time as adults to bring civil actions and in some instances, criminal as well. And I thought, this is an emerging area of the law. And I went to my practice group leader and we went all the way up the chain to firm management and made the case for why it made sense to implement a group that looked at institutional clients who were named in lawsuits increasingly. And we service institutional clients, hospitals, healthcare systems, religious organizations, academic institutions. All of a sudden clients were being named in lawsuits or facing these allegations. 

  

(30:18): 

All of that to say we created, we call it our smart group, which is an acronym for Sexual Misconduct Response Team. It was out of a need that was emerging in society and in the legal profession, and we responded to it. And McDermott is a terrific firm for being nimble and responding to the broader conditions of the profession and of our society. So that’s an example of assessing the needs and then being nimble and flexible and fast enough to respond. That’s my first set of answers on what you and others can do as leaders at Affinity. For example, the fact that your allies speaks volumes to your culture at Affinity. And I, for one, really appreciate that and applaud you for it, your women operated and owned, which is awesome. That also speaks volumes to your commitment to your clients and to your employees and colleagues. 

  

(31:25): 

I think awareness is critical. Having me today on your podcast is a real showing of support and of significance of why these conversations are so important. So stay educated, look for diverse perspectives, welcome those kinds of different lessons and different ways of thinking because your business will thrive in that kind of a culture. It’s the leaders who feel they already have all the answers. There’s nothing for them to learn. They’ve got it, they’ve got it, they’ve got it handled, and they stop listening. They stop listening to their own people. They stop listening to their own colleagues in the profession, and they stop listening to their clients. And that’s frankly, in my view, a recipe for disaster. One of the things that I tell my smart team, and we talk all the time, and we are a cross office team. People are all over the country. 

  

(32:30): 

We are a very diverse team. We’re women led. But what I have told this group of really terrific attorneys is this, I want you all to know that no matter what the issue, you can reach out to me, you can call me. Everyone has my cell phone number and whatever it is, whether it’s work related or life related, I am here to listen. If there’s a way to do something better, I want you to tell me. I need you to tell me because I don’t have all the answers. And I think it’s just a common misperception that leaders, because they are leaders with a capital L, have all the answers. We don’t. We’re human beings. And I think the best kind of leader is someone who is able to exercise compassion, really feeling what your colleagues are experiencing, and that takes active listening and then putting it into action. 

  

Debbie Foster (33:29): 

That is such great advice. And one of the things a few years ago started a, it’s called Project Mosaic is our diversity inclusion belonging equity group. And one of the things that we have recognized is that we’re not perfect as leaders, and we’ve all stepped in it and have tried to figure out how to step in something, which is really hard to do. And that idea of always learning and li being an active listener, I think is such great advice that is really impactful for me to hear, because I really do try to do that, but I know that I’m not perfect at it, and I want all of these different opinions and diversity of thought and diversity of action around our table. And sometimes it’s hard. Sometimes, one of the challenges I think that we face is tradition and history and inertia and the way we’ve always done things, and we see this with our clients. Sometimes those forces are so strong that getting people to stop and say, wait a minute, here’s an opportunity for us to do something differently or think about something differently, is not the easiest thing to do. So I, I’m super inspired by what you just said and how we can be thinking about being active listeners. And I think on that note, Lisa, I’d love to, we may just have to have another, have you on another episode of our podcast, but I would love to know, oh 

  

Lisa Linsky (35:05): 

No, not that 

  

Debbie Foster (35:07): 

It’s been so good and so impactful. I’d love to jump to our final question. We love women leaders and we love mentoring and we love being mentors, and we love being sponsors, and we love learning about being better leaders, being on this leadership journey together. And we ask every one of our guests at the end of the episode what their leadership superpower is. And I don’t even know how you would pick one superpower because I’ve got like 10 going through my mind for you. But what is your leadership superpower? 

  

Lisa Linsky (35:41): 

Yeah, that was a tough question. I thought about that question long and hard, and I think I wrote down about 10 different superpowers. So I don’t know if in the real world you can really have all those superpowers, and now you’re just asking me to pick one. But I think if I had to pick one, I would pick one coin with two sides being the good trial lawyer that I am. And I think one is being a visionary, looking at something, seeing why it’s not working, seeing how it could work, how it could be better, and envisioning first the optimal situation, whatever that may be, and then living into that. Because I think a true visionary is not only a person who sees things the way they could be, but then takes the action steps to move in the direction of the vision. And the flip side of that coin is intuition slash trust. 

  

(36:41): 

I think one of the most important qualities for an effective leader is intuition, listening to your gut. Most of us, and I think women in particular tend to be intuitive. Maybe it’s because many of us are parents, we raise children. Maybe it’s because as women, we sometimes feel we have to be doubly as good as some of our male counterparts, whatever the reason. I think that many women, particularly women leaders, have an internal gauge, a compass that guides us and guides our decisions. I know over the course of my career, I look back and I think, how did I know how to do that? And it wasn’t that I, whatever the that was, maybe it was the L G B T committee that I formed. Believe me, the first day when I was tasked with this, I was terrified. I didn’t know where to start. 

  

(37:38): 

And yet intuitively, there was something inside of me that made me feel like, okay, let’s visualize. Let’s think about what this could be and then take some baby steps. Just do something. Do something. I started cold calling Lambda legal and HRC and saying, what would you like from a partner who’s a big law firm and investigating, but trusting my instincts along the way? And so that’s why I think that intuition and trust are really just hand in glove. They just go together that way. And that’s an interesting conversation for another day about women leaders and the issue of trusting ourselves and the obstacles and challenges that we face along the way. 

  

Beth Thompson (38:25): 

Lisa, one of the superpowers that I think you exude is compassion. You’re a very compassionate human being. It has come through loud and clear in the last what minutes or so that we’ve been chatting. We will absolutely have you back on to continue this discussion. We really appreciate you taking the time, and it’s been our absolute pleasure to get to meet you and get to know you a little bit. Thank you again already, Kaplan. We will forever be indebted to you. Not that we weren’t already, but thank you so much for being with us on this episode today. 

  

Lisa Linsky (38:58): 

Oh, I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I’m so happy to know you both. 

  

Beth Thompson (39:03): 

And that’s a wrap. Thanks for listening to Powerful Leaders. No apologies. Be sure and subscribe to our show and help us spread the word by sharing our show with your network, 

  

Debbie Foster (39:14): 

And check out our show notes at affinityconsulting.com/powerfulleaders for resources and ways to connect with us. See you next time.