Welcome to Powerful Leaders, No Apologies.
Beth and Debbie interview Duane Morris partner, Michael Cohen, who shares his journey as an employment lawyer and his transition to becoming a renowned speaker and coach. Michael discusses his passion for workplace culture, diversity and inclusion, and mental health awareness, highlighting the importance of being a mentor and role model, particularly as a “girl dad” and coach to young women in sports.
[8:17] Becoming Coach Mike
[25:53] The right kind of loud
[35:41] Lessons with Ted Lasso
Debbie Foster (00:03):
Welcome to the Powerful Leaders. No apologies podcast, a show about women who are ready to own their power and change the world. My name is Debbie Foster.
Beth Thompson (00:12):
And I’m Beth Thompson. Our guests are fierce and fabulous women who are making a difference in their personal and professional communities. Are you ready to be inspired? If so, stay tuned and also check out our website at affinityconsulting.com/powerfulleaders. Here’s the show.
Welcome back to this latest episode of Powerful Leaders. No apologies, Debbie. I’m really excited about this episode in particular. It’s, we’re going a bit off script today, and I’m super happy that, gosh, months ago I came to you and pitched this idea to maybe have a bonus episode that was out of the norm where we interview a girl dad because all powerful female leaders begin with a girl dad, right? I mean, that’s part of the secret sauce, I think, and you immediately said, absolutely, and I’ve already got the perfect guest for us. And so without further ado, I would love for you to introduce our guest today.
Debbie Foster (01:17):
Yeah, that was an exciting brainstorming session we had. And I remember as you were telling me about this idea, I had a name on repeat in my head. I already know. I already know. I already know. Let her finish. Let her finish. I already know. I already know. And it was Michael Cohen and Michael Cohen is our very special guest today, not just a girl dad. I’m going to just talk about him for a second, about a recent event that happened that was so inspiring for me. I don’t really cry a whole lot. Sometimes I get a little teared up and TV shows are the things that get me the most choked up. But I did get a little choked up at an event where Michael and I recently were where he was doing a keynote presentation. Michael and I are both very involved at the Association of Legal Administrators on many levels at the chapter level in the national level, but this was at the annual conference.
A very good friend of ours was in charge of the annual conference this year, Katie Bryant, and it was one of her dreams to have Michael do a keynote, and Katie doesn’t do anything halfway. She had to exponential the experience, and she did, and she did it by another good friend of ours. Jeffrey Williams, who is the president of the A l a, had the privilege of introducing Michael to an audience where he is well known and well loved. He’s Michael’s been around for a while and is one of the top rated speakers. In fact, I made this joke and I make the joke regularly that when I’m asked to speak at the ALA conference, the first thing that I do is I make sure that I am not speaking at the same time slot as Michael Cohen because I don’t think anybody’s coming to my session.
They’re going to go to his. But anyway, he had the main stage this time and Jeffrey opened it by reading a letter, a couple of letters, a combination of some letters that were written by Michael’s wife and his two girls about Coach Mike and what Coach Mike means to them. Jeffrey was reading, Michael was pretending to not be all choked up while being all choked up. I was getting choked up watching that whole thing play out on the stage, and then Michael got it together and delivered an amazing presentation about a topic that is so important in all of our organizations around diversity and inclusion and belonging and things that matter so much. And so that was a long way to say, Michael, welcome to our podcast. Please tell us about yourself.
Michael Cohen (03:52):
You’ve already choked me up twice during the last couple of minutes. Thank you, Beth, and thank you Debbie. And I remember when I saw or listened to the first episode of your podcast, which is tremendous by the way. I remember thinking, I want to be a part of this. Obviously I’m not really the demographic in terms of guests, but as you said, as a girl dad, as somebody who at least I consider myself to be a mentor, to a great number of young women from a coaching standpoint, what you all are doing is not just inspirational, it’s not just critically important, it’s practical, and it really does provide the listeners with advice that they can use now that they can use going forward. And it’s just a thrill to be here with both of you. So thank you,
Debbie Foster (04:42):
Thank you, thank you. Tell us about your background. I mean, I know the story, but I want you to tell us about your career journey and then really segueing into how you got to talking about what you’re regularly on stage talking about. And let’s not leave out the part about Coach Mike because that’s an important part of this whole thing.
Michael Cohen (05:05):
Sure. So I’ve been an employment lawyer for about 25 years. For the first several years of my career, I did what most junior employment Lawyerist in large law firms do, which is whatever they tell you to do. I found myself doing a lot of employment, litigation, defense representing companies when they got sued for different HR concerns, absolutely loathed my professional existence, did not like the litigation process at all. I found it to be destructive and at times, unnecessarily mean, which is not really where I live, and was ready to leave the practice of law. And ended up, I had a wonderful, wonderful boss at the time, a guy by the name of Jim Reder, who was the head of our, what was called Labor and Employment Department at a law firm called Wolf Block. And Jim knew that I had an affection for this training component, which I really just started doing, and he encouraged me to really work with it and develop it as much as I could and make it sort of my own and to try and create a practice kind of around it.
And he was so generous with his allowance for me not to do what traditionally mid-level associates and big firms did. He gave me billable credit for stuff that wasn’t billable so that I wasn’t getting punished to go across the country and talk about some esoteric part of the National Labor Relations Act in a small town outside of a small town outside of Boise. He facilitated my developing this program, and I remember, or this practice, and I remember his saying to me very early on that this is going to take an awfully long time to bear fruit. You have to create a name for yourself. You have to become a brand for this really to work. And I don’t know many bosses in many large law firms who would have allowed this, and Jim did, and I am in his debt to this day because there’s no way I’m still in the practice of law.
But for Jim Red. And what that has turned into is for the last 17 or 18 years, my doing entirely preventative legal work, day-to-day counseling agreements, handbooks, that kind of stuff. But overwhelmingly, and Debbie, what we’ve experienced together is the training I conduct anywhere between 200, 225 trainings a year all over the country. And I have found that thing from a work standpoint about which I am truly, truly passionate. And what has been super cool about it over the last 6, 7, 8 years is I’ve started to focus more on things that I really care about, which is one of the cool parts of this kind of practice. And what that has been is really a lot of time spent on workplace culture, on talking to law firms, talking to other types of organizations about what really does matter to people, whether it is, as you talked about, the importance of D E I and mitigating it against implicit bias, whether it is for me, my single favorite thing I get to talk about these days, which is mental health awareness.
I am the product of two shrinks. I got hugged a lot as a kid, and that has always been sort of a core element of my existence. So this training piece has been a wonderful education for me. It has slowed me down a little bit to a degree. It has certainly alleviated stresses that I had and experienced. It gives me an outlet for what is a lot of energy, and it’s something that I use the education that I’ve developed through the education that I provide. It honestly, it has made me a better husband to Jamie. It has made a better dad to Maddie and to Mia, and it has made me a far, far better coach to the young women who have, I’ve had the absolute privilege over the last six years with this specific organization that I coached for, to coach, coach Mike is a real thing apparently when I go to the University of Michigan campus and I see Mia, every one of her sorority sisters, every one of her friends come running up to me, big hug, coach Mike, coach Mike, coach Mike, which is just like, it’s such a kick.
Yeah, it’s so ridiculous. But it has become sort of an identity for me and one that I, other than being husband to Jamie, and other than being dad to Maddie and to Mia, being Coach Mike is my absolute favorite thing. I get to be in the whole wide world, the organization for which I coach with a couple of amazing women by the name of Carla Hudson and by the name of Monica Clark is an organization affiliated with Major League Baseball that is designed to revitalize softball in inner cities. And the young women who I have the opportunity to coach are really just a tremendously special group. It changes year to year, but they are equally wonderful each year and cause of who they are, it provides me with opportunities to be surrogate college advisor, surrogate college essay helper person who gets on kids for grades slipping. And most of them have incredibly positive male role models in their lives. But even for those who do, and certainly for those who don’t an outlet have conversations that they may not be able to otherwise have. The coolest thing I get to do,
Debbie Foster (10:32):
Some of us are really lucky to have important father figures and dads in our lives, but there are a lot of people who haven’t had that privilege that depend on really strong role models. Sometimes they’re women, but sometimes they’re men and sometimes they come in the form of coaches or employers or someone that they see on a stage that ends up becoming their mentor. And I think that that’s something that was so exciting to me when we started talking about this, about you being on the show, which you did reach out to me the minute our episode was released and you were like, I don’t know how, but maybe there’s a way. And then Beth came to me and we were like, oh, dots connected. This is perfect. But when you’ve told the story about Maddie and Mia and them being involved in sports, and one of the things that I’ve heard you say before is you were only in it if they were okay with you being in it. Yeah. You knew that that delicate balance of I’m the dad and I’m the coach was something important. Maybe talk a little bit about that.
Michael Cohen (11:35):
Sure. Sports is never something that either Jamie or I pushed on the girls. Jamie was a division one tennis player. I was a pretty decent baseball player, but we wanted the girls to find their own way. And it was interesting because Mia, our older daughter, it wasn’t that she didn’t like sports. She had active contempt for sports when she was a little kid. She was super uncoordinated. She was terrible at every sport. She tried and just couldn’t stand it and was doing dance, which was lovely, was playing the piano and was doing theater and it was great. And Jamie and I were all in and like, okay, we got a theater kid. Cool. Let’s do this. Let’s learn all about it. Then Mia, when she was about eight, said, I want to try to join a swim team. Well, we live in Philly. There’s not a lot of swim teams downtown.
We’ve talked to your friends, none of them want to participate. You still in? Yeah, I want to do it. Okay. We found a swim team and she fell in love with swimming, and it started two days a week, and then it was three days a week, and all of a sudden it was six days a week, which was probably Jamie and my bad for not pulling an eight year old back or a nine year old back from swimming six days a week. And she got to a point where she said to us, I remember her saying to us, swimming’s lonely. I’m part of a team, but I’m by myself. I mean, we joked all the time that it was, she didn’t want to do it anymore because she couldn’t actually talk while she was underwater. I
Debbie Foster (13:03):
Wonder where she gets
Michael Cohen (13:04):
That. It’s weird, right? I don’t know. I have no explanation for it at all. And she came to us and said, I think I want to try softball and everything in my power, Debbie Beth, everything in my power. Not to jump up and down and scream yippy, but I kept a straight face and I was like, all right, there are definitely softball leagues. Let’s sign you up. And she fell in love and everything the older sister does, the younger sister wants to do and wants to do better. And athletics has become really an important part of both of their lives. And for me, and I think they would agree, the sports part of sports is kind of the least important part of sports, if that makes sense. Commitment, dedication, your willingness to work hard, your ability to function as part of an organization where you don’t get along with everybody knowing that I have three games this week and I have five tests this week, which means Friday night and Saturday night, I’m probably not going to hang out with my friends.
I’m probably going to have to study because I know what’s coming up the following week. Interacting with young women whom you, in all likelihood would never have an opportunity to interact. All of these things are so much more important than what goes on during the games. Actually, Debbie, I had a parents meeting with my parents on Monday night, this past Monday night. We have been blessed with a overwhelmingly over the last six years that I’ve been with this organization, a wonderful group of parents, and I have a wonderful group of parents this year who are a little rough on their own kids from time to time and sometimes are a little too loud.
Debbie Foster (14:57):
And I like energy. I’ve been that mom. I’ve been the mom. Yeah, I’ll confess. And
Michael Cohen (15:01):
I like loud. What I don’t like loud is when it’s not directed the right way. So we had to have a meeting on Monday night and it went fine, and we didn’t practice governing out Tuesday. So we had practiced last night and I’m, I try to be pretty transparent with my girls, and I told them about the conversation I had with their parents and with their guardians, and basically I almost started crying when I was talking to them. And I said to them, the reason I was as hard on your parents as I was is because I love you all and because I love this organization and I love what you all have with each other. And I simply will not allow that to deteriorate or be impacted in any way because one parent thinks that their daughter’s not playing enough, or one parent thinks that another girl is getting special treatment or anything of that nature,
Debbie Foster (15:48):
Or they were safe when they were out, or they were out when they were safe or whatever. We’re great referees from the stands sometimes,
Michael Cohen (15:56):
And none of us is perfect. We all mess up, including the umpires. But the import of the conversation I had with the girls last night was the games aren’t what matter here. I’ve played thousands of baseball games in my life. I don’t remember a score from any of ’em, right? What I remember are bus rides. What I remember are flights. What I remember is torturing people in hotels when I was 12, and I want them to have those experiences as well. Softball ends. What doesn’t are the memories and the relationships that you create with these other young women who, again, many of which you never would’ve known, embrace that.
Debbie Foster (16:37):
And I’m guessing you get paid a lot for this other job of yours, right? In just not dollars and cents,
Michael Cohen (16:43):
Millions of dollars. I get paid with an infinite amount of appreciation and with joy. Yeah. It’s volunteer.
Debbie Foster (16:52):
It’s volunteer. And I’ll tell you, I have a third, Beth and I were joking about this. Beth’s daughter, Brooke was not a sports person. Is that a fair thing to say, Beth? That is so fair to say. And she will listen and she will laugh. Yes. No, we tried everything. Karate, softball, you know, name it. We tried it. She just wasn’t athletically inclined, not her thing. My kids on the other hand, played every sport because I needed them to, because I needed someone to watch them from the time school got out until I could get off of work to pick them up. And so it became part of their normal life. My daughter, who is 30 now played volleyball from the time she was young, young, young, all the way through college. And when I think about, I could just get choked up thinking about the coaches that she has had and the impact.
I mean, she’s 30, she’s going to listen to this too and probably be like, mom, that’s not true. But I know it’s true. She hasn’t even yet realized the impact that those coaches had on her life. She will and she will continue to uncover more things, but it might be something that someone says, or the way something that someone does or a lesson that she learns that comes up learn, that just comes up at exactly the right time where she can connect that dot back to someone standing on the side of the court saying something encouraging or maybe not so encouraging at the time. Yeah, because there’s great coaches and there’s not great, but the impact that these people can have on our lives and on our kids’ lives and the impact that you have on those young women’s lives is really cool. And one of the reasons, I mean, I love the Mia and Maddie stories and the Jamie stories that I get to hear when I get to sit in your session, but I also love the coach, Mike, and you’re actually Coach Mike to Maddie and Mia too. You’re just kind of coach Mike in your life.
Michael Cohen (18:49):
I think I am.
Debbie Foster (18:50):
So I want to shift gears. I was looking at this earlier today, and you find ways to weave pop culture into your speeches and your trainings and your teachings in a way I wish I had. I could do that. I don’t know. I wish I could do that, but
Michael Cohen (19:07):
Debbie, it’s because I am an unapologetic TV and movie watcher. Okay, good. Don’t ask me the last book I read, I can tell you every series that I’ve watched, so that’s good. I’m not sure it’s good, but
Beth Thompson (19:20):
At least you’re using it for the greater good, so it really, I hope so. It’s professional development, Mike. It’s professional development. Let’s go
Michael Cohen (19:27):
With that. Let’s do
Debbie Foster (19:27):
That. It’s professional development. Yes. So one of our other really good friends, Alan Wilson. Yeah, Alan and I had this idea during the pandemic with a bunch of other people, rich Wilson from his son about doing this program called Lemonade. Remember when we all thought we were going to go home for a few weeks, and we were like, we got to entertain some people. We got to give ’em something to look forward to. So let’s do, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Well, Michael, you were a huge supporter of that and a participant in that. And I was looking at our last lemonade, and I want to say it just brought me back through watching that I was on the stage in Arizona with Alan and Rich, and you were presenting from, I think from your office in Philly, but this is the title of the session you did. Leadership is Life Law Firm Management through the lessons of Ted Lasso. Yeah, Ted Lassos, like your dude.
Michael Cohen (20:20):
He’s my guy.
Debbie Foster (20:21):
Michael Cohen (20:22):
He’s my guy, my guy.
Debbie Foster (20:23):
Tell us all of the things, diversity, coaching, mental health. Give us some minutes about Ted Lasso.
Michael Cohen (20:31):
So let me go back half a step first. What you and Alan and Rich were able to do for a lot of us during the pandemic was so important from a speaker standpoint, being able to be a part of it and from an attendee standpoint to be able to be a part of something that was as professionally done and as effective as lemonade, while we were all stuck in our houses, was invaluable. And it really did provide lemonade mean in a situation where we all needed it. So thank you. And my affection for Big Al and for Rich, and I love those guys. So when I started watching Ted, which was for me sort of the Laminitis thing that came out of the pandemic, and Jamie gets so annoyed with me when I do things like this, but I can’t help myself. When Ted Lasso came on, I immediately started writing stuff down after the first or second or third episode.
I was like, this is a masterclass in leadership. This show, it really shows how important empathy and kindness and not treating everybody the same matters so much from a leadership standpoint. As the show developed and the character started to develop and you kind of figured out why each person was there, what was their purpose sort of expressly, and then how was it weaved in with the other characters and the other storylines? And then when you got to season two, and for me the entirety of that season was really about the demystifying de-stigmatizing, the reality of mental illness and the importance of mental health at work and the lessons that were brought forward. And I tell my girls all the time, and when I say my girls, I don’t mean Mia and Maddie, although they’re included, my girls that I coach, be a goldfish. Forget about it.
We used to say flush it. You make a bad play, flush it and be a goldfish. Short memories taking on a challenges a lot riding a horse. If you’re comfortable while you’re doing it, you’re probably doing it wrong. There’s so much that came out of the show that is useful in day-to-day life for me as a husband, as a dad, as a coach, as a lawyer, as somebody who does presentations, and it is so sweet. Somebody who I was connected with on LinkedIn, literally I haven’t been in the office in a few days. I got to my office and there was a t-shirt that this woman sent me with just, it just said, believe it was the yellow believe sign on a t-shirt, which I don’t know if I want to wear, I kind of think I want to frame it and just hang it up in my basement.
Really, the show has become kind of part of me, which sounds hokey, I know. But I watched that last episode and I didn’t watch it for about two weeks because I didn’t want it to end. And I finally got to the point where I was like, I’m going to end up hearing about stuff that I don’t want to hear about. Eventually I watched it and it was perfection. Jamie and I always argue, Jamie likes when a show or a series ends for it to be tied up with a little bow and everything neatly done, and I hate that. I like the imperfection and I like the opportunity for interpretation of what you think actually happened. I always go back to the last episode of Sopranos. You know what actually happened when the lights went out? But this one had both somehow. And I think, and Debbie, you and I have talked about this before.
I think my favorite moment from any episode in the show actually happened in the last episode, Ooh. Because I had a sense this might come up. I actually wrote it down so I didn’t get it wrong. And it was when Roy came to the Diamond Dogs came to Beard and to Ted and to Nate and was struggling, he was like, I’ve tried. I’m going to keep the curses out that I’ve tried over the course of the last couple of years to become a better person, and I keep messing up and I can’t get where I want to be. I’m paraphrasing it. He said it more colorfully and more eloquently. And Higgins, who’s kind of like a behind the scenes character. He’s the finance guy behind the organization who you don’t always expect the emotion from, but he gives it to you every once in a while.
And he kind of, for me, summarized the entirety of the show. And what he said to Roy was, human beings are never going to be perfect. Roy. The best we can do is keep asking for help and accepting it when you can. And if you keep doing that, you’ll always be moving towards better. And I started crying when I heard it, which is not a great thing. I cry at commercials, so it’s not that big a deal. But I just loved a couple of parts of that, which are, if you keep asking for help and accepting it when you can, which if you go back to season two, Ted was always encouraging his players to seek help and talk to Dr. Fieldstone. But it wasn’t until he realized that he would benefit from talking to somebody and he finally accepted the help when he could and that we’ll keep moving towards better the understanding that we’re never fully evolved, we’re never finished products.
And I just thought it represented kind of what the show was all about and what the characters were all about. Each of them, each of us had a struggle with which they dealt on a day-to-day basis, some large, some small, which is exactly what all of us deal with on a day-to-day basis. And I just thought that one, those couple of sentences were so representative of the show and spoke so much to me about me as, and of course I personalize it, like me as an individual, but also about the kind of messaging I can use with organizations because we’re not going to create utopia, whether we’re a law firm, whether we’re sort of gen pop outside of the law firm industry, but we do our best to keep moving towards better on a day-to-day basis. I loved it. I
Debbie Foster (26:43):
Love that too. And it reminds me, so Beth and I are both Big West Wing fans. Beth is actually re-watching it right now. I did not watch West Wing when it was on tv. I watched it afterwards and I binged it like a psycho, and I did the same thing you did. It took me a long time, weeks to watch the last episode because I felt physical pain about it ending. I was so connected to those people because I had watched, was it eight seasons in a short period of time. So they were kind of like my friends, right. I knew all about them. It’s one of my favorite shows. And when you did the presentation at the, a few weeks ago, this is kind of because it’s a perfect segue in kind of how we can wrap this up. You just talked about accepting help when you can. There was a scene from West Wing, that’s one of my favorite scenes that you talked about, and I would love for you to share how that scene went down and what it meant to you and why you shared that with a group of, I don’t know, a thousand or 1500 of our closest friends.
Michael Cohen (27:48):
Sure. So I’m with you, by the way, it’s, it’s probably one of my three favorite shows of all time. Sorkin for me writes the dialogue that I wish I could say, and I’m thinking and I can’t express it as well as he does. So the scene was between Josh Lyman and Leo McGarry. Leo McGarry is the chief of staff. Josh Lyman is the deputy chief of Staff reports directly to Leo, Josh. I had done some things that the Democratic Party, which is the party of Bartlett, and the party in the show were basically saying, we don’t want Josh around anymore. It’s time for him to go. And Josh was struggling, and there’s this very poignant moment where Josh kind of apologizes to Leo. And Leo shares this parable, which is my favorite parable, which is why I make sure everybody else hears it. And the parable is a guy’s walking down the street and he falls into a hole and he looks around and there’s no way for him to get out.
He can’t figure out a way out. And a, his doctor walks by and he screams up, doctor, doctor, can you help me get out of this hole? And the doctor writes out a prescription, throws it down the hole, and then as the story, as Leo tells it, priest walks by and the guy in the whole, father, can you help me? And the priest writes out a prayer and throws it down in the hole, continues walking. And then his friend Joe walks by and he says, Joe, I’m stuck in this hole. Can you help me out? And Joe jumps down into the hole with him and our guy looks at Joe and he’s like, what are you doing now? We’re both stuck. And Joe says to him, yeah, but I’ve been down here before and I know the way out. And every time I tell that, share that parable, I have a warmth in my heart.
To be honest, it reminds me of two people who are very special to me. It reminds me of my younger daughter, Maddie, who turned 16 yesterday. And when I said happy birthday to her in the morning, I told her, and I tell her this all the time, that I want to be like her when I grow up because my younger daughter is the goodes human being I’ve ever met in my entire life. And I don’t know how it happened given who her parents are. And the other person it reminds me of is somebody I referred to earlier, a woman by the name of Carla Hudson, who is somebody I’ve had the privilege of coaching with over the last six years. Carla and Maddie get it because Carla and Maddie will be the first people to jump down into the hole with you. They fully appreciate the fact that we cannot do it ourselves.
We can’t do it, and they’re there at all times for whatever is needed in whatever form that help can be provided. And the reason I shared that story or that parable or that clip I guess from West Wing at a l a, and I’ve used it since then, is my belief is that’s what employees are expecting of us as leaders. It’s not enough to write out a prescription. It’s not enough to send a prayer. They want you in the hole. They want you experiencing exactly what it is they’re experiencing and then sharing what has happened with you in the past to help them figure out a way out of the hole. And when I watch that clip, that’s what I see is Leo saying to Josh, I’m in the hole with you. And I think he says, I don’t know if it’s in that moment or if it’s in another clip where he says, as long as I got a job, you got a job. That’s what people want. Yeah. It’s simply not enough to say, I empathize. It’s simply, and that’s great, but what they want is you to get in the hole. What they want is you to get in the trenches. What they want is you to roll up your sleeves and figure out whatever it is that needs to be done right alongside them as opposed to, here are my suggestions. I’ll see you Monday.
Beth Thompson (31:30):
Well, Debbie, the way you described a few minutes ago, you are not wanting to watch the last episode of West Wing because of the way you’re going to feel this. How is how I’m feeling about wrapping up this episode? Michael, at the beginning you said you weren’t quite sure. You knew you weren’t the demographic for typical guest, but your message is absolutely for the demographic of this audience and why we wanted you to share your message just to hear the way that you have lifted up and communicated with and supported all of these young women. They’re all going to go on, I’m sure to do amazing things, in part because they’ve been able to know Coach Mike. So thank you so much for being part of this episode. We want to have you back. I’m sure we will. Again, we want to hear more Ted Lassos stories and apply those. So thank you.
Michael Cohen (32:21):
Thank you so much for having me.
Beth Thompson (32:23):
Thank you. And that’s a wrap. Thanks for listening to Powerful Leaders. No apologies. Be sure and subscribe to our show and help us spread the word by sharing our show with your network,
Debbie Foster (32:37):
And check out our show notes at affinityconsulting.com slash powerful leaders for resources and ways to connect with us. See you next time.